Northville, Plymouth Leaders Worried About PPT Revenue Loss

Cities expected to feel effects of personal property tax phase-out beginning in 2014.

Plymouth and Northville could feel the pinch of lost revenue from the phased-out elimination of the Personal Property Tax, leaders from both cities said Monday during a joint meeting in Northville between the municipalities' leadership and state legislators. 

In Michigan, the PPT refers to a tax on commercial and industrial equipment and furniture that is captured by municipalities. Gov. Rick Snyder signed a lame-duck session bill in 2012 to repeal the PPT over 10 years, but the law will take effect for small businesses—which constitute much of Plymouth and Northville's respective business bases—in 2014. The phase-out begins in 2016 for larger manufacturers.

By repealing the tax, towns such as Plymouth and Northville are left wondering how to make up the lost revenue. 

Northville faces a loss of $59,113, while Plymouth stands to lose $38,580 in PPT revenue in 2014, officials told Rep. Kurt Heise and Sens. Patrick Colbeck and Mike Kowall on Monday at Northville City Hall.

The state legislators all agreed the PPT places a burden on businesses.

"(The PPT) disincentivizes businesses investing in equipment," Colbeck said.

"I think that everybody is in agreement that the PPT is a burdensome tax," Rep. Kurt Heise, R-Plymouth, told the local leaders. "It thwarts job growth, deters business expansion."

Heise said details still need to be worked out in replenishing the revenue lost by the PPT phase-out, and voters will decide in August 2014 on the creation of a statewide authority to allocate the replacement funds, while local municipalities can impose an essential services assessment—to help fund police, fire and EMS services.

Heise said the loss of PPT funds also will affect downtown development authorities, public library districts and, to a smaller extent, school districts. 

City officials from both Plymouth and Northville said that well-funded DDAs have been crucial in fostering vibrant small business climates in downtown Northville and Plymouth, and said neither town could afford to cut much more from their respective budgets. 

"We're really concerned when we see numbers in our situation," Northville Mayor Chris Johnson said. "We're not able to cut police and fire anymore."

Denise Nash March 17, 2013 at 04:40 AM
Joe - you haven't looked deeply enough into this issue. The problem is that elementary schools use less money, middle and high schools more money. So Charters come in and set up "profitable elementary schools", funnel off money from the public school system, and then the public schools have less for middle and high schools. How do you know that pouring more $$ into public schools isn't working? I think that the schools had more money when MY kids were there in the 2000's than they have now. The class sizes were smaller...and every indication shows that smaller class sizes directly equates to better educational outcomes. I think you are getting charter schools mixed up with vocational schools. I agree with you, more vocational education is needed badly - not everyone can or should go to college. The take-away from this: what you call "lightening the load" will siphon more money out of the public schools and they are already cut to the bone.
Denise Nash March 17, 2013 at 04:42 AM
I am on earth - my dad helped start the union at Great Lakes Steel. My brother lives in Canton and is a third generation steel worker. Unions established the middle class in this country. They also instituted safe work environments for their workers. They also got 2 week vacations paid, and a 40 hour work week, as well as an 8 hour work day. People can no longer be fired for no reason. What is wrong with these things? It always sounds to me that people that complain about unions don't belong to them and wish they had that kind of representation.
Denise Nash March 17, 2013 at 04:46 AM
Did you know Fox News listeners actually were polled, and knew less than people that didn't ever watch any news show at all? Just saying. http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/fox-news-viewers-informed-current-events-don-watch-news-study-finds-article-1.981257
Denise Nash March 17, 2013 at 04:52 AM
Joe - what is your hang up about teachers? I guess to you, people are supposed to work for free. Indentured servitude? You are in favor of that, I suppose. What is it you don't understand about how businesses work? I will admit, the autos do build a certain amount of vehicles that sit in dealers lots. They floorplan them, so pay the interest of the load the dealer takes to pay the auto for them. If that made sense. But, if sales are down, they don't keep producing vehicles for which there are no buyers. Do you understand the concept of supply and demand? If the supply gets too much, the autos start offering rebates to relieve the dealer inventory...where supply and demand meet, there is your price. After saying all this - why do you think that a business grows without people spending money? That is what grows the business, and unless PEOPLE have money that they spend (in other words, it doesn't go off shore like Romney's money!) business doesn't expand, it contracts! Which is exactly what is wrong with your trickle down supply side economics - IT DOES NOT WORK!
Joe Horenkamp March 17, 2013 at 04:58 AM
Denise - Nothing wrong with private company unions. Right now though they are an extension of the Democratic party and spend more time doing that than representing their people which are the reasons Michigan is now a 'right to work' state. Americans for Prosperity and the Union Conservatives (UC) are now doing a series of town halls http://americansforprosperity.org/michigan/newsroom/rtw-town-hall-roundup-week-one/ . You might be interested in attending. I went to the one in Farmington Hills today. It was a vigorous back and forth with Terry Bowman, UAW member and President of UC and an economics professor from Hillsdale College. http://www.unionconservatives.com/
Denise Nash March 17, 2013 at 04:58 AM
Joe - no, if we dropped the income tax and all business taxes, it would make little difference unless the demand for products were there. Glad to see we can agree that fixing poverty depends on education. We just disagree that releasing business from taxation or regulation is a good thing. It is not a good thing. We all need to pay our way. And since the SCOTUS said corporations are people, they need to pay their fair share.
Joe Horenkamp March 17, 2013 at 05:02 AM
"...if we dropped the income tax and all business taxes, it would make little difference unless the demand for products were there." If the demand wasn't there then the businesses wouldn't be there. This simple basic economics. You don't really think that businesses would go out of there way to move to high tax state do you? Have you noticed states like TX, TN, and others with lower business taxes are drawing businesses to their state and not ours?
Joe Horenkamp March 17, 2013 at 05:06 AM
I have nothing against teachers. It's noble profession. I just don't like the idea of union bosses sitting down with corrupt politicians trading votes for my tax dollars that go back into union dues that are directed to the Democratic party. Public unions need to be outlawed for obvious reasons. It will be interesting to see which teachers opt out of their union membership after March 28th when RTW takes effect...
Joe Horenkamp March 17, 2013 at 05:16 AM
Well if the liberal rag NY Daily News says that's true, then that must be true. lol Actually the opposite is true. We could go on and on but YouTube is full of these kinds of interviews http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skw-0jv9kts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgfA2b9YSag I am certain the people interviewed do not watch FOX but rather the MSM...
Denise Nash March 17, 2013 at 05:33 AM
ha ha ...Joe - do you think a conservative paper would publish this survey? They don't want to insult their readers or turn them away from Fox! ha ha.... I have nothing against RTW. But, if someone doesn't pay for their union membership, they shouldn't get any union benefits. They can negotiate their vacation, work day, as well as compensation, class size, and safety. I believe that the teacher's unions have a clause that says they can opt out if they don't want their dues to go to political stuff, the teachers here can tell you that, but I've heard it before from them, so I'm sure it's accurate. My guess is that the majority will go with the union, and a small minority will opt out. Because some people know that school superintendents used to travel to the deep south, bring back low paid "teachers" that were not qualified, etc. I have a retired teacher friend that tells me lots of great stories about the olden days. Stories that younger people should listen to, so they don't make the same mistakes all over again.
Denise Nash March 17, 2013 at 05:38 AM
Joe Joe Joe...you are saying that business would go hog wild if the taxes were removed. NO. Business goes hog wild when people buy their products. Businesses, once established, don't move! Do you see Silicon Valley moving? Do you see Great Lakes Steel moving? NO! Maybe if someone runs a burger place and decides he's had enough of Michigan winters, he might move to that oasis Florida where people get sucked into holes in the ground. But substantial business doesn't usually move. That said, we have lost a bit of business, and we've gained some. <shrug>...I figure they will all end up here anyhow eventually, because we have water and much of the country doesn't.
Keith Yancy March 17, 2013 at 12:12 PM
Joe, I read just fine, thanks. "I would think a teacher would be able to read," "Duhhh," etc. Your tone and style are obnoxious. Perhaps that's why, as a small-time troll on the Patch, you aren't convincing anyone your arguing with of your position. Maybe YOU should re-read some of your diatribes. The worst part of all this is that I'm willing to consider your point of view... but knowing you're simply bombing people with words and re-typed campaign literature is a hallmark of an internet troll. Why not just write an article for the Patch, or better yet, the Observer, Free Press, News, mlive? You've obviously got a lot to say... why not share it with everyone (not just an obscure thread like this) and show some civility? If your argument is that strong and compelling, people will agree with you. Here's a tip, though: if you really want publicity and coverage, leave the combativeness and arrogance at home.
Christine Yancy March 17, 2013 at 02:23 PM
Joe, I think this is an extreme view. Corporate taxes were much higher in the 1950's and middle class prosperity and opportunity were much greater. Many public universities, such as UC-Berkely, offered free tuition. This prosperity was paid for by higher taxes on the rich and corporations. Of course they wanted to remove this burden, so they pushed through a long-term agenda of deregulation--supported by the attitude represented here by you. Deregulation in the early 90's removed the law which protected workers pensions from being raided--so now private pensions are largely a thing of the past. Deregulation allowed banks to create shoddy subprime mortgage bonds which they sold to municipalities, retirement savings funds, etc--which sunk the world economy. Deregulation resulted in corporations having unheard of political power and leverage to basically run our government. Just wait until the free market gets ahold of our water supply. I could go on about how dismantling the public sector and removing all tax and regulatory burdens from business does not lead to the mythical greater good of which you speak. There may well be nothing we can do now to compel large corporations to support their employees and the infrastructure of this country, but I am always surprised when people like you champion this cause. It will not lead to increased middle class prosperity. Never has, never will.
Denise Nash March 17, 2013 at 03:04 PM
Christine, glad to hear you mention the 50's...when I think back to how I grew up, the biggest difference was that in my little blue-collar neighborhood, we had a truck driver, a school teacher, a steelworker, a furniture shop owner (mayor of Wyandotte at the time), a dentist, an insurance salesman, a banker, a minister, and a white collar management worker at BASF, all in the same neighborhood, living next door to each other. That doesn't happen now, you would never see that. Everyone prospered instead of a few living in rich subdivisions, and many living in poverty. The 50's was a great time in America.
Christine Yancy March 17, 2013 at 04:03 PM
Thanks, Denise :) I'm quite sure there were many problems in the 50's. However, I mentioned this era in order to point out that prosperity for all and a strong middle class was in large part facilitated by government intervention--through regulation and progressive taxation on the elite class and on corporations. Joe is correct in pointing out that this placed a that class. They wanted this burden removed and took measures to do so, creating organizations such as Americans for Prosperity to funnel corporate money into groups at the local level like the Tea Party, who advocate for removing tax burdens from corporations and the wealthy. And groups like ALEC who create model legislation to dismantle our public sphere which the elite no longer feel a responsibility to support. Unions aren't perfect; government corruption exists. However, giving away our publicly created institutions like schools to corporate enterprises will not benefit the middle class. Our taxes will not go down. We will not get better services. It looks like Joe's argument is to tax individuals rather than businesses. So does he expect that workers will be able to replace the trillions of dollars that corporations have sent into off-shore tax havens as a result of these policies? I'm looking forward to his response.
Christine Yancy March 17, 2013 at 05:16 PM
I don't follow your reasoning that public unions should be outlawed. I don't understand why people don't support their fellow Americans having decent pay and benefits. Public sector workers work just as hard as their private sector counterparts. The question we should be asking is why don't ALL employers provide living wages, safer working conditions, health insurance, job protection and other benefits. It is this "us versus them" mentality that has more than anything else poisoned our national dialogue. Let's call for good pay and benefits for everyone. Once we lower the standards for some, we lower the bar for the nation. Remember, corporate profits are way up, yet wages have been stagnating for decades. Instead of reducing the living standards of teachers to the point where they have to apply for food stamps to get by, let's ask why our private corporations no longer believe in providing good salaries and benefits for their employees--who are also their customers-- without whom they would have no business.
Ted Lang March 18, 2013 at 05:34 PM
Denise Nash, First, charter schools are public schools; so, how can you destroy public education by giving more public education choices, so long as no one is forced to attend them? Regardless, where charters are placed within existing schools districts, they perform better than the local school district more often than not. This is particularly the case within Plymouth-Canton Comunity Schools where charters perform better in 14 of 15 comparable subject/grade MEAP scores. (And charters are much less expensive for the community.) The statements you attribute to Sen. Colbeck are just not things he would say (prove me wrong) as I know him. I could "agree to disagree" with you, but you need to be more accurate with your facts, andtwo master' degree's don't change those.
Denise Nash March 18, 2013 at 07:16 PM
Ted Lang - I talked to the teacher directly, as he quoted Senator Colbeck. Yes, he said those things. I can get in touch with him if you'd like. He is a science teacher in Belleviile. And YES, he said the burger flipping comment to a large group of people. I can get a woman here that can confirm it if you'd like. She was there when he said it - her name is Mary, she is a teacher in Fowlerville. As far as your charter ELEMENTARY SCHOOL in Canton: when you have middle/high talk to me. Do Charter schools DO BETTER as you say, in most situations? Where do you get your statistics? Here is a neutral article for you. I can find a LOT more for you to read if you are interested. http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/Main-Menu/Organizing-a-school/Charter-schools-Finding-out-the-facts-At-a-glance "Some charters do better; the majority do the same or worse. CREDO also moved beyond individual student performance to examine the overall performance of charter schools across multiple subject areas. They found that while some charter schools do better than the traditional public schools that fed them, the majority do the same or worse. Almost one-fifth of charters (17 percent) performed significantly better (at the 95 percent confidence level) than the traditional public school. However, an even larger group of charters (37 percent) performed significantly worse in terms of reading and math. The remainder (46 percent) did not do significantly better or worse."
Denise Nash March 18, 2013 at 07:42 PM
Ted Lang - I've heard about your nice little charter in Canton. Good for you. But you said something I'd like to have you explain to me, see following quote. Because if you think Charters are CHEAPER than public schools you are wrong in that assumption. If you mean "they pay teachers less", that is correct. But the difference in expenses and revenue, goes to the owners in PROFIT. You will understand when you see billboards and other ads for charters. Yes, they pay out Taxpayer money for advertising. You have a lot of nerve questioning my FACTS. I have now offered to get hold of these people for you. Next time, include some links, like I did! "This is particularly the case within Plymouth-Canton Comunity Schools where charters perform better in 14 of 15 comparable subject/grade MEAP scores. (And charters are much less expensive for the community.)"
Joe Horenkamp March 18, 2013 at 08:40 PM
So who's doing the name calling? Diatribes Keith? Small time troll? "Simply bombing people with words and re-typed campaign literature is a hallmark of an internet troll."? Typical response from the left - if you can't hold your own in the argument start the name calling, disparaging the AFP, the tea party people, the Koch brothers, George Bush, Heise, Colbeck, any conservative, anyone who doesn't agree with you, etc. It gets lame after a while. And if you are paying attention you would see that My 'Duhhh' comment was in response to the 'dishing out FOX news talking points' comment. Somehow you missed that. So then, what are you Keith? Big time troll? Or did I intrude on a teacher's cry-fest thread?
Joe Horenkamp March 18, 2013 at 08:53 PM
This is the second time I have asked this question with no answer: If our public schools in general are so excellent then why is there a market for charter schools? Personally I don't understand the over concern about charter schools. If they are not viable alternative to the public schools both economically and academically then they won't fly. The reality is that the market place is reacting to what is perceives as a weak product at least in the more urban areas.
Possum March 18, 2013 at 08:56 PM
If you feed the trolls, this is what you get.
Denise Nash March 18, 2013 at 09:38 PM
Joe Horenkamp - I'm sorry I didn't answer your question before. To be honest with you, I don't actually have a big problem with charter schools in areas where the public educational system has failed the population, such as in Detroit. But here in Northville and in Plymouth, Novi, etc, we have fantastic public schools and really there is no reason for them, other than to undermine the public schools system. However, I do have a HUGE problem with Corporate America running schools for profit. There are some things in life that shouldn't be reduced to a profit and loss statement, and to quarterly financial goals, and our children's education is one of those things.
Denise Nash March 18, 2013 at 09:39 PM
@Patch Possum - ;-)
sine-of-the-times March 18, 2013 at 09:51 PM
That's where we differ Joe, public schools are not businesses, nor should charter schools be disguised as such when using my tax dollars. Open a for-profit charter as a school which has no new ideas, but just exists for the purpose of being a "school" and I call that a private school, where you are free to send your child if you pay for it. Rather, there are now public dollars being taken from "regular" schools who are having trouble offering the same services, then, it starts a trend/ a domino effect...hey, let's go to the charter...to the online school, etc...(where we can get things because there are fewer legacy costs, etc...which is another whole story...) Then, many of those students return, many of the students find out that cyber schools are not the best choice, but by then it's too late, the funding went to a for-profit charter. I feel we need to invest in the community schools we have, stop trying to sell-out to the lowest bidder and really allow each school to address it's unique needs. While schools are not businesses, I think I can try to equate it with the decline of the local business man...when "Lowe's" moves in, "Bob's Hardware" has a hard time providing the same quaint, local services, sure we consumers get stuff cheaper, but how's the quality and service?
Joe Horenkamp March 18, 2013 at 09:55 PM
You work for a salary right? Well if a private company can come in, open a school, attract customers, do the same or better job at a lower cost and a profit for those that run the school then why would anyone object to that? We need schools private or otherwise, charter, whatever, that specialize in the arts, automotive, wood working, electricians, mechanics, etc. Those that don't fit into one of these can opt for a public school. Programming kids for college that don't want to go to college makes no sense, and bores the kid. We need to get rid of the Dept of ed and get the government (and the unions) out of the education business. JMHO
sine-of-the-times March 18, 2013 at 10:06 PM
There are reasons why they'll do it cheaper, and you know it, or else you wouldn't keep ragging on the issue. Those things are not what holds people up, it's what cheapens us and you know it. Until then, the future will have the last word Joe...
Jerry Grady March 18, 2013 at 10:16 PM
Denise I have put kids thru Charter, Public, and Private Schools. I sat on the board of all three as well. I could go on and on, but at the end of the day, each school and each student requires a different approach. Some kids do better in Charter, some in Public and some in Private. The Charter I sat on was non-profit and educated the children for under 5,000 a child and they had some of the highest MEAPs in the Ann Arbor Area. Our teachers were paid a fair wage and comparable to the public teachers. We also were responsible for paying into the health and Pension for those teachers. Doesnt mean a thing to me unless our kids are educated and can go on to lead productive lives and be good for our society. Teachers deserve to be paid as they are educating our children for the future. But it takes a village, and by that I mean the most successful schools are not because of money, they are because the teachers and parents work hand in hand to educate the student. The parents understand that the teachers can only teach when the parent supports the teacher.
Keith Yancy March 18, 2013 at 11:40 PM
Thanks for proving my point, Joe. Perfect. Why should I attack you when you do such a great job of proving my point yourself? Enjoy your monologue.
The Truth March 19, 2013 at 01:17 AM
It is interesting to see folks fall in love with their own arguments. Joe and Denise are two excellent examples. The truth is between them.


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